“When You Erase Human Beings, It
Starts To Get Weird”:
A Jakub Woynarowski Interview
José
Alaniz
Fig. 1. Jakub Woynarowski at the Manggha Museum of Japanese Art and Technology in Kraków. Wawel Castle in the background. Photo by José Alaniz. |
Polish artist, Jakub “Kuba” Woynarowski
(b. 1982) earned a Master’s degree at the Faculty of Graphics at the Academy of
Fine Arts in Kraków in 2007. He also finished his doctorate there in 2017. Today,
Woynarowski directs the Narrative Drawing Studio at the AFA. He also works in
design, installation art, comics, and museum curation, with a strong
theoretical and visual arts focus. His many books include The Story of
Gardens (2010), Corpus Delicti (co-authored with Kuba Mikurda, 2013),
and The Dead Season (Martwy Sezon, 2014). Woynarowski’s accolades
include the 2014 “Paszport” award from the weekly, Polityka, for his work
on the Polish Pavilion at the 14th Venice Biennale of Architecture
and the Grand Prix at the International Festival of Comics and Games in Łódź
(the oldest, largest such event in Central/Eastern Europe) for his comics piece,
“Hikikomori” (2007).
I met Woynarowski at the Ligatura Comics
Festival in Poznań, Poland, in 2010. I have long found his work intriguing for
how it operates at the intersection of comics, fine art, and posthumanism.
While on a trip to Kraków in Summer 2024, I took the opportunity to see “Background,”
an exhibit Woynarowski co-curated at the Manggha Museum of Japanese Art and
Technology (see review elsewhere in this issue). After he kindly gave me a
guided tour, we sat down for an interview.
— José Alaniz
This interview was conducted in Kraków on June 23, 2024. It has been condensed and edited for clarity.
José Alaniz: You do a lot of different things in a lot of different media, but here, I’d like us to speak mostly about your comics-related work. Let’s begin with what you were telling me about your experience at the Academy of Fine Arts, where you teach narrative drawing. You mentioned you had to talk your superiors into letting you do it.
Jakub Woynarowski: It started in 2009, when a friend of mine, a professor at the academy who’s also a great fan of comics, invited me to take part in this initiative. We organized two different comics workshops in 2009 and 2010. We wanted to see how many students would be interested. Would there be a response to this subject? And there was--a huge response. We’re talking hundreds of people that contacted me about it. So, then we worked to convince them to open the studio. They resisted. We had proof that people were interested, so, it wasn’t about lack of students. The resistance came more from the idea that comics were not considered an art form.
JA: Sounds familiar!
JW: Yeah. They thought of it as “just” popular culture, mass culture. Because, you know, these people had no idea about the diversity of comic art. They thought, “How diverse could it be?” So, I showed them a lot of experimental stuff, like Richard McGuire, as well as fine artists who also do comics. I put together an assignment for the students, inspired by Chris Ware, to create their own hypertext comic with a non-linear structure. They did great. Very nice, very cool. They made abstract comics, wordless comics inspired by poetry. You can take something like Ware’s Building Stories (2012) as a model. Building Stories is a kind of hypertext in the sense that it’s made up of many different pieces in different formats, which you can read in any order. You have to piece it together in your mind. So, ultimately, we succeeded in implementing the program. I’ve led it from the time I got my Ph.D., in 2017.
JA: Did you grow up in Kraków?
JW: No, in a smaller city, Stalowa Wola, in Southeastern Poland. About three hours by car from Kraków. I came here for secondary school when I was 15. I’ve lived in Kraków ever since. Many of my friends moved to Warsaw, but I started to work here, and I found a good environment. Warsaw and Kraków are completely different. So, it depends on what your focus is, what you like and what you want to get done, that determines where you want to live. Warsaw is more busy; everything there is very fast.
JA: My understanding has always been that Kraków is a better preserved city, while Warsaw was much more damaged during the war. You can totally see that; it’s a lot more medieval-looking here.
JW: Right. In Kraków, the architecture is completely different, more historical, yeah. It’s a kind of hybrid situation. But you know, Kraków also has another city center far from the historical center, built under socialism.
JA: I was there yesterday! I was in Nowa Huta.[i] I got to see the Beksiński[ii] permanent exhibit there. Pretty grotesque dystopian horror. What do you think of his work?
JW: I like some of his works, especially the early ones. Some consider him a problematic artist because he switched from one field to another. He started as an avant garde artist and moved more into popular culture. Also, many people have other problems with him. I think he was an intriguing figure, because painting was only one of his interests. He was also a fascinating photographer; he created experimental audio art; he was a writer, a video artist documenting the process of creating the paintings. And, his commentaries were very ironic; he was conscious of what he was doing. So, maybe it’s kitschy, but I love it.
JA: Also speaking of Nowa Huta, I was curious what you think of the pissing Lenin.[iii] It reminds me of David Černý.[iv]
Fig. 2. “Fountain of the Future”
(a.k.a. Pissing Lenin) by Małgorzata and Bartosz Szydlowski (2014), in the Nowa
Hura district of Kraków. |
JW: That came
about during an international festival ten years ago. Many different artists
were invited to Poland. They, along with Polish artists, created some artistic
interventions in the public space of the city. You could link this type of
irreverent art to movements in the Communist era that were making fun of
official culture. Especially in the 80s, there were groups of artists inspired
by punk and Pop Art.
JW: Yeah. I
liked what he would do on the margins, all this strange stuff made of
spider-web. Organic figures. Or Venom, with this black stuff all over the
place. I used some of these elements in my own comics.
Fig. 3. Roy Lichtenstein’s “Cow Going Abstract” (1982). |
Fig. 4. Woynarowski’s “Hikikomori” (2009). Note Todd McFarlane influence. |
JA: What was it about these manuals that inspired
you?
JW: I really liked doing technical drawings when I was a child. We did them at school; it was mandatory. My friends hated doing them, but, I really liked it, because of its precision and this infographic structure that I thought was so nice. I started turning these single drawings of objects into sequences of images.
Fig. 5. Franz Kafka’s “Accident Prevention Regulations on
the Use of Wood-Planing Machines,” written for the Workers’
Accident Insurance Institute for the Kingdom of Bohemia in Prague, where he
started working in 1908.
Fig. 6. Marcel Duchamp’s “Chocolate
Grinder No. 1” (1913), a sort of “bachelor machine.” |
Fig. 7. Jan Lenica’s “Labyrinth”
(1963), a classic of Eastern/Central European animation. |
When I was in secondary school, around
the late 90s, beginning of the 2000s, there was a group of Polish fine artists
born in the 70s, who were actively producing for galleries, but, at the same
time, they were making comics. And, probably, they were one of the big
influences for me. For example, Wilhelm Sasnal.[xix]
He’s a quite famous Polish painter now, but when he started his work, he was
working in Grupa Ładnie [Ładnie Group], which means, “the guys who are doing
nice things.” “Ładnie” means nice, but, of course, here, it was ironic. It was
a kind of Polish pop art mixed with 90s punk art zine aesthetics. And, it was
sort of an art comic, like something Raymond Pettibon or Gary Panter might do.
Those are probably the closest analogues.
What was important in their art is that
they were focusing on daily life. It was very different from the mainstream
comics scene in Poland in the 90s, because most of those comics were, you know,
fantasy. Some fantastic alternate worlds, but not our daily life, which looked
boring in comparison. But, I responded to these comics, because they presented
that boring daily life as something very attractive and strange.
Fig. 8. Maus (2001-2015)
by Wilhelm Sasnal, with art removed from (the Polish translation of) Spiegelman’s
page. |
Most of them are autobiographical. Sanal
also focused on history, the Holocaust, Communism, all that. He even did a
project inspired by Maus in Bielsko-Biała, a Polish town in which
Spiegelman’s Maus partly takes place, where Artie’s parents are from. On
this one page of the comic, he erased all the characters, leaving only the
speech bubbles. And it’s a very dramatic moment, which really happened in that
town, and it was mounted on the wall of one of the buildings where the action
happened. It’s like a found footage comic project. Also site specific, because
the place is important. He also creates a series of paintings inspired by Maus,
the interiors of the concentration camp without any characters.[xx]
Fig. 9. Vol. 2 of Marzena Sowa’s
graphic memoir, Marzi, published in 2006. |
Fig. 10. Woynarowski’s The
Dead Season (2014). |
JW: Before, you were
talking about climate change and all these things related to the Anthropocene.
It made me think that my graphic novel, The Dead Season, is also dealing
with that. It’s also about the ecological crisis, as well as my childhood. It
combines different visions of apocalypse, including climate change and nuclear
catastrophe. But, it’s also about a pandemic, a Coronavirus. It was created in
2014, so before the pandemic. You could also relate this theme to a recent
popular trend in Polish visual arts, which are all these motifs related to death
and undead creatures. To the fuzzy line between life and death.
Related to that, and getting back to
superheroes, Tim Burton’s movies about “Batman” were a great inspiration for
me. Especially “Batman Returns” (1992), which was more creepy than the first
film. I was influenced a lot by the character of Scarecrow. I drew Scarecrow a
lot as a child; it was one of the main motifs in my early art.
[i] Funded by the
Soviet Union, the socialist realist suburb of Nowa Huta rose up after World War
II. The Communist authorities saw it as a showcase city, where 100,000 workers
could live the good life thanks to central planning. Today, the district has
residential areas, arts, and cultural centers. It forms quite the contrast to
the familiar “gothic” Kraków that attracts more tourists.
[ii] Zdzisław
Beksiński (1929-2005) was a Polish painter, photographer, and sculptor, a
master of dystopian surrealism. Some took his paintings as expressions of
horror and despair under Communism. In 2016, a permanent exhibit of Beksiński’s
works opened in the Nowa Huta Cultural Center.
[iii] The neon
yellow-green statue, “Fountain of the Future” (a.k.a. Pissing Lenin), by
Małgorzata and Bartosz Szydlowski, was unveiled during Kraków’s 6th Grolsch
ArtBoom Festival in 2014. It was meant as a tongue-in-cheek replacement for a
mammoth and much-hated Communist-era Lenin statue in Nowa Huta’s central
square, which was removed in 1989. After the festival, “Fountain” was moved to
the rooftop terrace of the Utopia Home (Dom Utopii) International Empathy
Center, a multi-use facility in Nowa Huta.
[iv] Visitors and
residents of Prague will often run into the humorous public art works of Czech
artist, David Černý (b. 1967). These include “St. Wenceslas” (2000), showing
the medieval Czech king riding atop a dead, upside-down horse (hanging in the
Lucerna building) and “Babies on the Tower” (2001), mounted on the Žižkov
Television Tower.
[v] Russian
conceptualist art duo, Komar & Melamid, made up of Vitaly Komar (b.1943)
and Alexander Melamid (b. 1945), spearheaded the Sots-Arts movement in the late
Soviet Union.
[vi] “Torment” formed
the first story arc in Todd McFarlane’s mega-hit, Spider-Man (1990).
[vii] Barry
Windsor-Smith’s story arc, “Weapon X” (on Logan/Wolverine of the X-Men),
appeared in Marvel Comics Presents #72-84 (March-September, 1991).
[viii] See, “Accident
Prevention Regulations on the Use of Wood-Planing Machines” in Franz Kafka: The Office Writings. Corngold, S., et
al., eds. Princeton University Press, 2009.
[ix] French writer,
Michel Carrouges, coined the term, “Bachelor Machines,” for the many
hypothetical contraptions and mechanical art pieces which emerged in the wake
of the Industrial Revolution, which, among other things, he took as supreme
examples of Freudian sublimation. He derived the term from Marcel Duchamp’s “The
Bride Stripped Bare by Her Bachelors” (The Large Glass) (La mariée mise à nu
par ses célibataires, même, 1911-25). In a famous 1976 Paris exhibit, Harald
Szeemann brought some of these fictional works into the physical plane. See Chapter
4 of Constance Penley’s The Future of an Illusion: Film, Feminism, and Psychoanalysis (1989).
[x] French artist, Francis
Picabia (1879-1953), was a major figure in the Dada and non-objective painting
movements of the early 20th Century.
[xi] Tadeusz
Baranowski (b. 1945), a pre-eminent Polish comics artist, started publishing
his work in 1975. Among the most famous are A Journey on the Dragon
Diplodocus (Podróż smokiem Diplodokiem, 1986).
[xii] Jan Lenica
(1928-2001), a major Polish cartoonist, graphic artist, and animator, directed
the classic, “Labyrinth” (Labirynt, 1963).
[xiii] Award-winning
animator, Jerzy Kucia (b. 1942), known for “The Return” (Powrót, 1972) and “Parade”
(Parada, 1986), teaches in the Academy of Fine Arts Animated Film Studio in
Krakow.
[xiv] British animation
duo, the Brothers Quay, made up of Stephen and Timothy (both b. 1947), have
shown a lot of Eastern European influence in their award-winning works, e.g., Street
of Crocodiles (1986), based on a short story by Polish author, Bruno
Schulz.
[xv] Surrealist Czech
animator, Jan Švankmajer (b. 1934), influenced generations of artists in his
home region and beyond, with remarkable works, such as “Dimensions of Dialogue”
(Možnosti dialogu, 1983) and “Little Otik“ (Otesánek, 2002).
[xvi] Polish film
auteur, Walerian Borowczyk (1923-2006), produced porn-inflected art house
cinema. He also dabbled in surrealist animation.
[xvii] Jakub Mikurda
& Jakub Woynarowski. Corpus Delicti. Stowarzyszenie Nowe Horyzonty,
2013. See, also, “Animated Bodies: A
Conversation Between Kuba Mikurda and Jakub Woynarowski.” Boro, l’île
d’amour : The Films of Walerian
Borowczyk. Kuc, Kamila, et al., eds. Berghahn Books, 2015.
[xviii] Love Express: The Disappearance of Walerian Borowczyk
(Love Express. Przypadek Waleriana Borowczyka, d. Kuba Mikurda, Poland/Estonia,
2018).
[xix] While primarily
known as a successful Polish painter, Wilhelm Sasnal (b. 1972) has also
produced cartoons for the periodicals Machina and Cross-Section
(Przekroj).
[xx] Maus
(2001-2015). Sasnal mounted the image on the exterior wall of the Gallery BWA
in Bielsko-Biała. He had intended to mount it on a wall of the Museum of
Technology, which was formerly a factory owned by the Spiegelman family.
Permission was denied. The controversial Polish translation of Maus
first appeared in 2001. Some objected to Spiegelman’s depiction of Poles as
pigs, among other things.
[xxi] Marzena Sowa (b.
1979) published the graphic memoir series, Marzi, with art by Sylvain
Savoia, starting in 2005.
[xxii] Szpilki was
published from 1936 to 1994, with some interruptions (e.g., martial law
restrictions in the 80s).
[xxiii] Jan Sawka
(1946-2012) produced anti-government prints, paintings, and cartoons in Poland
and emigrated to the U.S. in the 1970s.
[xxiv] Published in The Believer. No. 52 (March 1, 2008). https://www.thebeliever.net/anna-karina-and-the-american-night/.
________________________
José Alaniz is a professor in the Department of Slavic Languages and Literatures and the Department of Cinema and Media Studies at the University of Washington, Seattle, and has published academic books on Russian/Eastern European comics and other topics.